A Union President

Tell us about yourself and your work.

I’ve been a utilities worker for 44 years. I started at Con Edison in 1978 as a meter reader, working in the Bronx. Then I transferred to Queens, to what they call “environmental operations.” This was a matter of flushing clean the manholes that are full of mud and water to make them ready for the crew to go in there and work. After this, I got transferred to overhead and became a lineman. I later went to the emergency department and I became an overhead troubleshooter lineman for at least 15 or 16 years. These are the workers who fix anything that goes wrong on the overhead system, from somebody hitting a pole and knocking it down to the lights in your house flickering. In 2008, I became a full-time Union Officer or Business Agent, covering electrical operations in the Bronx and Westchester. In 2019, I became President of the Utilities Worker Union of America (UWUA), Local 1-2.

What are your responsibilities and priorities in this role?

I make sure people have a safe work environment, are treated fairly, and get properly compensated for their work.

How many members do you have and what do they do?

Our entire union is about 7,300 members. That’s folks in New York City and Westchester County. We have everything from auto mechanics, to linemen, engineers, power plant operators, truck drivers, storeroom people, and administrative people — the whole gamut. This, mind you, is a low number. When I got hired in 1978 we had 30,000 members.

What do you think caused the drop in member numbers?

Modernization, for one. For example, there used to be a group of guys who pulled the cable in and out of manholes. It was called the cable gang, because it was a gang of like ten or twelve guys. Now it’s four. This is because the newer equipment makes the other workers redundant. Overhead crews also used to be much bigger, when you had to physically climb the poles. The crew would be four or five or six people. Now an overhead crew could be just two people.

Which companies employ your members?

ConEd is our biggest employer. Ninety-five percent of all union members are ConEd workers. ConEd is also a distribution company, not an energy producer. We additionally have members who work for energy production companies.

Are the numbers of these latter folks dwindling?

Seriously dwindling. The biggest example is Entergy’s Indian Point Nuclear Plant, which was unfortunately shut down in 2020 and 2021. I say unfortunately because that was a zero-carbon emissions plant, and when it got shuttered, it meant we actually had to burn more fossil fuels to make up for the lost electricity production. We also had over 400 union members working there and they were all let go or transferred. We helped get them jobs at other companies. Some of them stayed with Entergy and moved to places like Arkansas or Louisiana. Others retired. And while the plant is being decommissioned, we still have about 30 people working there alongside the decommissioning workforce.

You said that 95 percent of your union members are currently working for ConEd doing distribution. Do you expect that to change going forward?

The ConEd workers will be affected by changes as well, but differently. The push for the electrification of buildings will take away the need for natural gas, for instance. I have over 1,000 people who work for Con Edison in the gas department. So those jobs will go away and we will slowly shift these workers over to the electric side of the business. At the same time, however, the demand on the electrical system is going to explode and we will need workers to handle this. In the end, there may be an overall gain of jobs. But if it’s a loss, it won’t be much of a loss. We’re hopeful.

Beyond the transition to electrification, how would you say the impacts of climate change have affected the work your members are doing?

Well, things are still very much in the process of changing. I mentioned the people who worked at Indian Point. There are also new regulations on nitrogen oxide emissions from peaker plants like the NRG plant in Astoria. The NRG plant, too, was shut down in May of 2023. So those union members are also going to lose their jobs.

What about the impact of climate in terms of the everyday experiences of your workers? Have hotter temperatures, for instance, been noticeable?

It’s hotter sometimes, yes. When you’re working in a manhole or on a pole on the electrical lines, or in a substation or power plant, there’s the potential for explosion or electrical arc. Anytime there’s a potential for arc or flame or something of that nature, you have to be protected with PPE. The PPE is fire retardant clothing, and you can easily sweat in the winter in that stuff. So, it taxes people’s bodies: they have to take more frequent breaks and drink more water.

Also, the number of storms has increased greatly. Trees fall down. Power lines come down. Poles snap. This means my members work more hours and in more dangerous conditions.

This puts more strain on the system and more strain on the worker who has to go out and fix problems.

Were there memorable impacts on you and your workers after Hurricane Sandy?

Manhattan flooded and this created a lot of work in the short term. But it also created a lot of longer-term work to make Lower Manhattan more resilient because the overhead system was redesigned to make it more resilient in the face of storms. This entailed sectionalizing it so that if a wire comes down in one location, fewer customers are affected. In a lot of parts of the United States and throughout the world, you have what’s called a radial system; it feeds energy in just one direction. In New York, however, it’s a network system. So in a radial system, you have a transformer here, and it feeds a large area. In New York City, there’ll be a transformer here, and here, and here, and here. You can lose one and the others will still feed into the system.

That was originally a resilience measure? Or is this just a historical accident?

It’s been this way for a little time. But yes, this has made the system more reliable. And after Sandy, further work was done to minimize the amount of area that would suffer an outage.

You mentioned the loss of jobs that arises when plants are decommissioned. Are there also potential upsides for your members when it comes to developments in renewable energy?

Oh yes. Let’s take the Ravenswood plant in Queens. That’s a great story. The company is Rise Light and Power. As you may have heard, they recently got the approval needed to make Ravenswood into a clean energy hub. We worked with them to help them secure the contract for this project. What they intend to do is bring in energy from New York renewables projects, including offshore wind, and wind and solar coming from upstate. They also plan to put in battery storage and thermal heat pumps, the latter of which they will use to help heat the Queensbridge Houses, which are just down the road and are the largest housing project in America. The Ravenswood site is important because a number of power plants in this part of the city are going to be shut down, and something will need to replace them. Ravenswood will also be a model for converting similar sites where the ties to the transmission and distribution system already exist. Last but not least, Rise has committed to keeping on all the UWUA Local 1-2 workers currently employed at Ravenswood, and to developing a training program in renewable energy for these and others, which will be located on site.

It sounds like you are quite supportive of this renewables project?

Well, I fight to keep my people working and in jobs, and this sometimes involves raising concern about the dismantling of fossil fuel infrastructure. But we’re not climate deniers. We believe there is a need for a response to climate change. What we want is for people to do it sensibly. We have to have replacement sources of energy, in particular. And when we shut plants down, we also have to think of the displaced worker. We have to ask, who is this worker who will be transitioning? If it’s someone who’s 50 years old, a company isn’t going to want to retrain him. So he needs a bridge position that will transition him into retirement. If it’s a 35-year-old with two kids and a mortgage, on the other hand, we have a different problem. This worker isn’t going to hang his toolbelt up today and then next week report to that offshore wind farm. We have to have a way to transition him through training.

What you’re talking about is not just a green transition but a just transition.

Yes. I’m very involved with the just transition. There’s a lot of money for this out there. The New York State Energy Research & Development Authority (NYSERDA) has money to aid training and to aid people moving into new jobs or new careers or retirement. It’s talked about a lot, and we need to start making it happen.

Is that why you’re focused on the training side of things?

Yes. Again, a company like Rise Light and Power is a great example. They’ve pledged to work with us through our national union, not just locally. We have a training program called Power for America. It’s currently based in Michigan. It trains people in all different types of work in the utility industry. Rise is actually creating an onshore wind training program there currently. But now that they are approved for the projects that will help shift Ravenswood away from fossil fuels, we can actually train people on site. This is a potential answer to the question: How do you keep the existing fossil fuel plants working safely and efficiently up until the end while simultaneously transitioning the workers?

My understanding is that for some of the new green jobs, like installing and maintaining wind turbines, fewer labor hours are needed to produce the same number of kilowatt hours. Is that a potential problem?

Yes. With the wind turbines for example, the plan is to use drones to inspect them, and only when there’s an issue that needs to be fixed will the technician or mechanic go out there and fix it. Europe has had wind turbines for many years, so the answer to the question about how many workers are really needed to maintain them will come from there. I personally think that the numbers that are commonly floated are misrepresentations.

They’re higher than what should be expected?

Way higher. Let’s say, and I’m just picking a number here, that wind projects are going to create like 100,000 jobs. But probably 90,000 of them are short-term construction jobs. The long-term operations and maintenance jobs will be limited.

So, it seems you are optimistic about renewables projects — but only up to a point. How do your workers feel about changes happening now?

It depends on what work they do. The people who are in the power plants, for instance, are fearful for their futures. They are working in the fossil fuel industry, so they feel targeted, even threatened. They wonder about the unknowns: Is there going to be a job for me in the future? On the other hand, in terms of the additional kinds of workers that I represent, there may be less concern. This is because the assumption is there’s always going to be a need for somebody to splice cable or input data or design a service change or a new transmission line.

In terms of the workers who feel like they’re being targeted because they’re in the fossil fuel industry, what are the conversations that happened around that? Are these workers actively interested in collaborating on transitional training programs and clean energy projects like the ones being developed by Rise Power and Light?

Well, most of the companies comparable to Rise are just holding on till the end. Ones like NRG and Eastern Generation, which run peaker plants, have applied to upgrade their facilities. The Department of Energy and Conservation, through pressure from environmental groups and others, have denied them those permits. That’s why, for instance, the NRG plant in Astoria was closed in May. Meanwhile, if allowed, NRG would have changed out all the gas turbines they have there, and they would have burned 90 percent cleaner than what we’re doing. And we would have still maintained energy reliability. But it wasn’t the popular thing to do. Because, again, while the need to transition to renewable energy is real, the rush to do it is risky and often driven by fear and people who are just misinformed.

We touched on this a little bit, but when you imagine the future that will be inherited by the next generation of your members, what will it look like? Or for someone running the union in 30 years, in 2050, what will they be doing?

I think people that are going to run this union will be similar to myself and the others who do this work now. We do it because we believe in making sure that the worker has a fair wage, a safe place to work, and decent benefits. I think the utility worker of the future will also be similar to the one we have today. There may be different equipment that they’re going to use. But electricity is electricity. The change is in how it’s generated, and that change has gone on since Thomas Edison invented the lightbulb. In today’s world, electricity is produced with gas, oil, or nuclear fuel. In the future, it’s going to be the sun and the wind, and there’s a lot of talk about finding a way to use hydrogen. Maybe there’s also something that somebody’s working on that we’re not aware of, you know?

I first learned about your work through the organization ALIGN, which is a nonprofit coalition of labor, community, and environment groups. What are some of the key partnerships that you are engaged in and that are going to help with the just transition?

The CLCPA in New York created a Climate Action Council to help determine how we’re going to move forward. I’m on the subcommittee on just transition. I’m a board member of the New York City Central Labor Council. I’m part of Climate Jobs New York, trying to get the climate jobs in New York to be represented by the unions. And I’m also on the board of directors of the National Offshore Wind Training Center that’s going to be located out in Brentwood.

Can you explain the work of Climate Jobs New York?

It’s a coalition of a bunch of different labor unions here in New York, from plumbers to electricians to utility workers to building trades groups. They are all trying to work together with the developers to get the work done in the best way, and this provides the unions with a unique representative organization.

This is important because of the concern that the green transition will create a lot of new jobs that, unlike the old jobs in the sector, won’t necessarily be union jobs?

There is the possibility of that, yes. And that’s why groups like the ones I’m involved with are working to make sure that doesn’t happen. We believe being in a union ensures good benefits, wages, and a safe workplace for a worker. And it also provides a company with a well-trained and dedicated workforce. Everyone wins.